JWT's 'Fast Company' story full of surprises
—Posted by Catharine P. Taylor |
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May 25, 2006 | Permalink |
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messner is the only one on here with any wit or class. still, 50 posts later, nobody can tell me what campaign or even single ad ty montague is famous for.
Posted by: Linus Van Pelt | Jun 2, 2006 6:06:24 PM
While I admire Mr. Messner's many accomplishments, I take issue with his belief that great work "must be recognized as great by the industry with hard-to-come-by awards."
Why? Is an ad worthy of acclaim merely because the same insular clique of creatives who inevitably judge these shows say so? Do we really need Jeff Goodby's or Dan Weiden's stamp of approval before we can say, "Yeah, that's a darn good ad?"
Awards are for people who are too lazy to think for themselves or too insecure to trust their own opinions.
Oh, and Linus, I believe Mr. Montague was one of the creative forces behind the much-lauded Sega 7 campaign from a few years back. He may have worked on some ESPN stuff, too. I realize this may not be particularly witty or classy, but I hope it was at least helpful.
Posted by: Thulsa Doom | Jun 3, 2006 9:49:28 AM
You're right, of course, Thulsa Doom.
Right about the necessity of having award show panels be the arbiter magnae (I took Latin in high school instead of Biology and my late Latin teacher said that someday I would be glad I took Latin as it will be very useful. This is the first time since 1959 that I have used Latin spontaneously. For those who didn't take Latin with Father Joseph Liney, C.M, arbiter magnae could mean decider of greatness. I think.)
If you go back over this thread, though, you will see a number of sez you-sez I digressions that, to me, are hilarious. Cathy Taylor starts off a little rough on those two poor people from Thompson who got euchred into appearing like two of the Three Stooges on a mixture of pharmaceuticals for a magazine that has a vested interest in so-called "new media" and digital delivery of digitalia. Then folks pile on including ming the merciless who does everything but banish them to the clay caves with the magic jewel of Martian Queen Azura, he having himself been driven from the Planet Mongo by Larry (Buster) Crabbe, Olympic swimmer and latter day advertising VO talent. Then I make the mistake of getting involved and I find myself indulging in an Apologia Pro Vita Sua (Latin again) and an attempt to establish criteria for greatness in what (apart from marketplace success) is entirely subjective.
There used to be a place on West 44th Street called the Teheran (this was before the Shah Pahlevi got replaced by a new creative director Ayotollah Khomeini and Persian restaurants went out of fashion--I think Judy Wald or Dani Lennon got the CD placement)and astoundingly this whole conversation here on a new medium reminds me precisely of discussions engendered by the old medium that reigned supreme in 1970: a long wooden bar.
Posted by: Tom Messner | Jun 3, 2006 11:33:20 AM
I remember teheran. I remember brilliant, self destructive writers and art directors. I remember guys like Charlie Ewell who drank and wrote some famous spots. And Ed Butler.
Mike Tesch. Like the boys of summer, I looked up at them.
I was a junior, and those guys wrote. They didn't have computers. They had beat up royal typewriters or long yellow pads. They proved the medium isn't the message. But the message was the message.
Guys who got drunk, smoked their pot, and yelled.
L:ots of screaming. Can't do that now. Human resources would drag you down there.
Yeah, every generation has their heroes.
Tom, you must have some really funny stories about a bunch of
of these characters: most of them were streeet guys (ron B perhaps). Giraldi, etc. Street guys who could write words that related to the common man better than a lot of authors.
Art director/writer teams that created real emotion. Or humor that still had the human touch,.
Advertising has changed. Use to be a place of a bunch of misfits who finally found a place to fit and have a voice.
And it was fun.
But this isn't about moaning about rememberance of time past.
advertising today is still an art. Gerry Graf to me on his skittles spots is creatiing absurd theater ioneseco would love.
And there are others.
Age is really hnot a factor in creativity,. Picasso was 90 and
was still a master.
Well, anyway, getting a bit preachy. Really started this off thinking I could ask tom for some funny anecdotes about a funny business.
Posted by: P. Kelly | Jun 3, 2006 8:47:02 PM
Linus: Ty does have chops. He's won a whole string of awards for ESPN and Crain's NY Business. Though he made his name with a campaign for Everlast that he did at Goldsmith/Jeffrey. One of those brilliant campaigns that was all over the One Show book, but the budget was so small, no one actually ever saw it on TV. Ditto something aimed at senior citizens, maybe a walker- I forget- but there was a funny spot about seniors cheating at cards.
In other words, his success is not a fluke.
Which brings me to one of the problems we have today. Something we're all too familiar with: the campaigns that win awards, that get you the next great big job, that give you credibility, are rarely the ones that anyone outside of advertising has actually ever seen.
CPB is changing this some- Burger King, Mini- those are pretty visible. But too many of our creative leaders are famous for doing brilliant campaigns for Joe's House o' Baseball Cards, The Women's Field Hockey Channel and the like. Products aimed at the 20 and 30somethings who make up the bulk of award show judges. Lots of navel gazing, in other words.
Posted by: Alex Cross | Jun 4, 2006 1:01:20 PM
Still talking about ty montague on a Sunday? Let's talk about the demise of the semi colon in adveritising. Something else!
Posted by: moe | Jun 4, 2006 2:18:23 PM
crispin is b.s., too. all their campaigns are the same: create some faux kind of quirky guy and a lot of talking. no real hard concepts. original mini campaign worked well. the faux infomercial has been done to death.
the vw stuff is childish.
burger king actually works. Know the beast the account is, they did quite an accomplishment.
Anyone else have any thoughts about what spots stand out?
Ty? Any thoughts?
Posted by: Eddie B. | Jun 4, 2006 2:42:59 PM
So then we're in agreement Eddie B.
Since the only 2 CPB campaigns I mentioned were Mini and BK.
And those are the 2 you seem to like.
What's most interesting to me about this thread?
That we're all craving a place to talk about what's going on in the industry in general (not just JWT) but there doesn't seem to be one.
A bunch of blogs ranging from the childish and junior-centric to the insane and bitter, but not much in between.
And a blog is not the ideal format for message-board type exchanges.
Maybe the gods at Adweek will read this and add a message board function to this blog or to Adweek.com
One final thought- there are 3 big agencies that are doing well- whether you like their work or not, they are doing well from a business perspective (more or less) - Ogilvy, BBDO & McCann. And what do all 3 have in common- continuity. There are people at all 3 places with solid careers who have been there 10, 15, 20 years. They haven't brought in brand new regimes every few years with the charge to sweep the house clean. So people are as secure about their jobs as anyone in this business can be. Focus on doing the work, rather than worrying about getting fired by the new boss.
Just a thought.
Posted by: Alex Cross | Jun 4, 2006 8:08:02 PM
Alex, last paragraph. I aqree on that, too.
And wile we're at it, here, just saw the last sopranos show of the season. That sucked, too,
Posted by: Eddie B. | Jun 4, 2006 10:19:14 PM
it's amazing that this thread has been going on for two weeks and noone at jwt has the balls to participate. at least not under their real name. wasn't jeffries the one whose name was all over the press last year heralding in the age of participation? gone is the monologue; welcome the dialgue. you should really practice what you preach, mr j.
ty and rose are the good guys. they're the ones really trying to get shit done. they're the ones with soul. it's the rest of the bafoons sifting through or perhaps steering the train wreck -- puppeteered by marian salzman, the self-aggrandizing self-proclaimed futurist (now that's a smoke-and-mirrors crock of shit)-- who are doing the real damage.
this industry should barely be discussing the demise of the thirty-second spot, or the marketing landscape, or the industry as we know it...instead, it's the flagrant demise of one of the most prestigious and venerable agencies in the world at the hands of spineless leadership.
Posted by: Sire Martin | Jun 4, 2006 10:25:22 PM
Mr. Cross identifies three large agencies that have succeeded over the last five years, BBDO, McCann and Ogilvy. He argues that that success came because of their internal stability.
Yet, all three have installed new top CD's in that time and two of the three have brought in new CEOs. Someone told me recently that the average longevity for a CMO these days at client organizations is about 21 months. And I don't need to be told that the biggest reason for agencies getting shit-canned is change in client management.
The first difficulty with all change in an ongoing organization (successful or not) is the decision to keep the culture or change it. Even a growing agency has that problem as new people come on and are integrated, are oblivious or rebel. A great agency of the late 70s (Ally &
Gargano) went from 60 employees to 240 almost overnight and it killed the place.
The second decision is whether to take the advice of Machiavelli who advised all new princes to dispose of all the retainers of the old princes so as to firmly show who is in charge and show that change is in the air as well as on the phone list.
There is a column (however inconsequential) in today's Adweek that talks about change and not changing, and the relative merits of both. As for me, I am going to play golf today with Howard Schwartz. Howard Schwartz, of Howard Schwartz Recording who survived the digital age somehow and still has a recording studio business. Mazel tov, Howie. (More Latin.)
Posted by: Tom Messner | Jun 5, 2006 7:28:41 AM
Guys, we should talk about the demise of blue. Ads today do not have enough blue.
Posted by: red | Jun 5, 2006 9:19:18 AM
Tom, read the article. Yeah, pretty inconsquential.
Posted by: rick G. | Jun 5, 2006 9:29:10 AM
Have to agree with Rick, Tom.
Posted by: R.R. | Jun 5, 2006 9:48:08 AM
Mr. Messner:
Yes, Ogilvy and McCann have new CDs, but they were internal promotions, not someone brought in from the outside to "clean house." And while they may have eliminated a few people they didn't like, basically it was "business as usual." And while BBDO handled the whole Bye-Bye Ted thing pretty badly, Lubars hasn't brought in a whole crew of Fallon boys to replace the lifelong BBDOers.
Hence stability. Both in creative staff and (more or less) large clients.
Contrast that to JWT circa 2005/06, where the people Montague didn't hire are sitting around like the French aristocracy during the Revolution, waiting for the guillotine to fall. Who wants to work in a place with that kind of vibe? And that's not even factoring in the whole "us vs. them" mentality towards the Bates people whose accounts actually pay the bills.
Truth is, Sir Martin needs to merge JWT and Y&R together and create some sort of new beast. Neither place has any real reputation anymore, save as a revolving door for talent and a penchant for reinventing themselves every few years. Or trying, anyway.
Posted by: Alex Cross | Jun 5, 2006 11:17:22 AM
Sire Martin, I believe that Marian Salzman deserves her own separate and special thread all her own. I’m sure one could write an entire novel about her leadership tactics (management and control through fear and hatred), ongoing obsession with sex and panademic illnesses ( I believe they made her yearly ‘trend’ reports three years running now) and guise to help make agencies she works at ‘famous’ just about the time she publishes a new book.
Posted by: Beth | Jun 5, 2006 2:24:49 PM
I just realized that anonymity is what makes this thing work.
But honesty compels me to tell you that I am not really Tom Messner, former copywriter and current poker pro.
I am Charlotte Beers.
Posted by: Tom Messner | Jun 6, 2006 12:04:05 PM
and I am really Tom Messner
Posted by: Ron Berger | Jun 6, 2006 11:37:51 PM
Who is John Galt?
Posted by: Lee Clow | Jun 6, 2006 11:42:49 PM
i invented the ego
Posted by: ed berger clow montague | Jun 7, 2006 9:03:07 AM
My ego is better than your ego.
Posted by: bernbach | Jun 7, 2006 3:11:13 PM
Ty Montague: "Penguins jostle one another on an iceberg until one falls in the water and the rest stand there and see if there is a tiger shark under the ice and that's what's happening in advertising. We're on the edge of some important change, but no one knows what it will be."
Seems like Ty Montague has already jumped into the water...
Posted by: A penguin | Jun 8, 2006 7:34:31 AM
penguins don't live on icebergs and
tiger sharks don't swim under ice but metaphors don't have to make sense if the speaker is a "creative director" and the audience is this one
Posted by: jack cousteau | Jun 8, 2006 9:46:06 AM
the reality is just the reality with or without a metaphor and it doesn't matter who says it. if you don't want to agree that's fine. someone just mentioned the ego...
Posted by: penguin? | Jun 8, 2006 10:18:52 AM
Cool.
Posted by: Willie The Penguin | Jun 8, 2006 10:44:03 AM
Interpublic just hired a new Penguin. they think this time it will work.
Posted by: Sir Penguin | Jun 8, 2006 11:00:18 AM
I know Gary Goldsmith from David Barton's Gym on 85th Street, and Bob Jeffreys I have known for quite a while. They are both nice guys, it seems. Plus Montague gained his initial ad fame through work at Goldsmith Jeffreys.
Which means, Goldsmith Jeffreys has, in effect, taken over J Walter Thompson and Young and Rubicam.
Kick some sand and knock 'em dead, guys.
Posted by: Charles Atlas | Jun 8, 2006 11:55:18 AM
I'm sure Ty would love your e mail.
Posted by: b.s. | Jun 8, 2006 1:08:15 PM
it doesn't matter who has taken over who or how the jumping penguin got to where he is now or who has hired a new penguin...none of that matters, but only the result... and we have to admit that the first penguin was the one that made us jump into the water...
Posted by: the penguin who started the penguin talk | Jun 8, 2006 1:51:34 PM
the first penguin actuallly took credit for making us jump in the water. The idea came from a junior penguin who then was fired.
Posted by: Donny Penguin | Jun 8, 2006 3:40:55 PM
and who would that junior penguin be???
Posted by: the penguin who started the penguin talk | Jun 8, 2006 3:44:01 PM
Don't know the junior penguins name.
But I did hear he's working at Lowe as a creative director.
Posted by: Penguins Anonymous | Jun 8, 2006 7:53:30 PM
all penguins aside. one day, long ago, goldsmith/jeffrey was a good solid local creative boutique. that was before its founders got too big for their britches. in the same way that jwt's new york office was a solid shop back in the late eighties and early nineties, under jeffrey's leadreship, in partnership with bill hamilton...who, by the way, was far too good for jwt and its flagrantly slow, bureaucratic, political ways. the biggest mistake jwt ever made was losing bill hamilton. they should've done what ogilvy was smart enough to do, and sent him away to "sleepaway camp" for a few months. fast forward seven years, and you've got jeffrey in over his head in a role that has stripped him of the very humanity that made people gravitate toward him in the first place...he can't make a decision without some domineering blond-headed sidekick at his left. and, well, you;'re left with nothing more than a clothes-less emperor. and then there's his best friend and former biz partner who sees his demise at arguably one of the industry's most quickly dying brands just as quickly reemerging at not-arguably the industry's most quickly dying brand (lowe to y&r for those of you who didn;t get the complicated sentence structure)...while the latter's ny office's head -- who also happens to be the best friend of jwt's nyo head -- jumps ship to go to another one of the industry's dying brands...arnold...or arnold mcgrath...or jmct...or whatever the hell it's called these days...which, btw, was founded by the father of the has-been who ran the creative ranks at jwt for many years...ahh, yes, eureka, eureka. it all suddenl;y makes sense. it's one nasty tennessee williams play of kissing cousins and incestous relations. this industry is too fucking small. everyone is in everyone else's britches. if, of course, they're not too big for their own. aahhh, where are pat mcgrath and brendan ryan and ed myer and james walter thompson when we need them? where are the days of three martini lunches? we would've been a lot better off waxing philosophical around tom messner's proverbial bar. all we see today are a bunch of doomsday hacks trying to reinvent an industry that will never again in this lifetime be what it once was. noble. and all of you bloggers are busy trying to tear ty montague apart. ty is the least of our worries. he's actually quite decent. it's the other big boys that will drive us all to our graves. and, in some cases, already have.
Posted by: sire martin | Jun 8, 2006 11:35:00 PM
I agree with Sire Martin. In fact Ty Montague is more than decent. He is very inspiring; I decided to move to this industry after one of his panels. And at this point in the industry to have inspiring people like him is as valuable as to have those big boys for all that important change. And to clarify the penguin talk; he is the penguin that makes a lot of new penguins want to jump in the water…
Posted by: the penguin who started the penguin talk | Jun 9, 2006 2:15:36 AM
All this talk is mostly true. Sir Martin is right. The Penguin who started the Penguin talk is right.
Every blog here is right.
Now, who went to the Penguin Award Show last night? Who won the Gold Pengy?
Posted by: Penguins for a better Ad Biz | Jun 9, 2006 6:27:21 AM
I know Ty for many years and he is a decent guy. But I am not sure of his talent caliber. Come to think of it, not sure of any current caliber.
Can anyone tell me what ad/campaign in the US stands out?
And what ECD stands out--and the campaign
he or she guided to prove they stand out.
And if it was up to me, I would fire all the penguins who followed the first penguin who jumped in the water.
And promote the penguin who says: Heck with this, Pally. I'm going to Miami.
Posted by: Ty Penguin | Jun 9, 2006 6:43:37 AM
But I keep going back to that photograph...
Posted by: WEEGIE | Jun 9, 2006 11:01:12 AM
Penguin talk ends blogs
Posted by: Eddie B | Jun 11, 2006 12:03:42 PM
Careless photos cost pitches.....
Posted by: Mr. Six | Jun 12, 2006 3:25:16 PM
careless photos don't mean anything if the work is ground-breaking...
Posted by: ms. reality | Jun 12, 2006 4:20:41 PM
...which obviously it wasn't.
Posted by: Mr. Six | Jun 12, 2006 6:00:22 PM
Ty broke wind. Not ground.
Posted by: Mr. Seven | Jun 12, 2006 7:02:07 PM
doesn't matter. he is still good. he can still break the ground. it's pity that not everyone can... and why is everyone blaming him??? what do you want him to do???
Posted by: only talent matters | Jun 13, 2006 1:31:54 PM
let's see....
Fire his old school ECDs, train Acct Management to understand non-traditional media and fire anyone who refuses, develop a strong Project Management discipline, give senior leaders specific responisbility rather than vague titles like Chief Experience Officer and Chief Integration Officer, insist Media Planners become part of the creative solution, recruit top flight technologists, put in place an accountable reporting structure and performance evaluation system within his creative dept, detail his grand plan in incremental achievable goals rather than vague comments about penguins and icebergs...
... then, in the second week......
Posted by: This is An Ex-Penguin | Jun 13, 2006 1:55:18 PM
who is listening to these trees that fall in an uninhabited forest..............?
The sounds they make are farts in an outhouse, sneezes in solitary, a hiccup from Adam on Day One................................?
attention in this business is the sincerest form of flattery....imitation being merely the
entry requirements....
Posted by: MARCUS AURELIUS | Jun 13, 2006 2:25:06 PM
Marcus - your comment makes little sense and no point. Poor grammar, terrible punctuation, a pretentious faux-poetic structure - it's unintelligible garbage, that pretends to be art for art's sake, and treats it's audience with disdain and contempt.
You must be a JWT copywriter.
Ba-da-bum.
Posted by: Ty's Conscience | Jun 13, 2006 3:49:04 PM
I came back to see how this has developed.
Twelve years ago, I think the late Debra Goldman may have invented the ad blog with a months long conference on e-mail that Jay Chiat, Jane Newman, Allen Rosenshine, Kelly O'Dea, and I participated in. It benefited, though, from Debra's editing when it ran in Adweek.
It also benefited from the fact I was recovering from a serious operation on my leg and was the beneficiary of a constant morphine drip from the folks at Lenox Hill Hospital. The dial-up e-mail access seemed fast at the time.
The drugs also made me agree with just about everything anyone said.
I look back at this blog this time and I don't even agree with what I said a week ago except for this: complaints about hackery, new regimes, old regimes, new hires, hot agencies, tired agencies are the same discussions that went on 36 years ago. Only the names change, and even some of the names haven't.
Posted by: Tom Messner | Jun 13, 2006 4:15:10 PM
Tom--wha?
Posted by: al | Jun 13, 2006 7:50:27 PM
Every blog here is healthy. Those of us who toil in the minefield are connecting.
This is the agency bar where everyone meets.
Posted by: Proust | Jun 13, 2006 7:52:31 PM
you guys should be grateful...
Posted by: | Jun 14, 2006 12:23:20 PM
